Hello, Skuldhellir!

^Also, PREPS MUST BE LISTED FOR EVERYTHING. This will be major when it comes to deciding how fair an ability is.

So... we would decide the IMPACT upon the continuity, not how GOOD the character is at using <ability here plz>? LIke...

Mage Dude knows SUPER MAGIC FIRE SPELL and has practiced it forever. IMPACT wise, he'd be a 5, and obviously he's good at it so a 4 or 5 there...?

... Lauren's a lil' lost, oh dear. ><; I'm sorry!

We judge 'em on both, Lolrens! But for the most part, yes, we judge on the impact. i.e. being REALLY GOOD AT FLYING doesn't... really impact the continuity. Being REALLY GOOD AT CONJURING FOOD OUT OF THIN AIR doesn't damage characters, but DOES really impact the continuity. Likewise, being REALLY GOOD AT BLOWING SHIT UP can potentially affect both continuity AND characters, so both of those would be rated pretty high, while the first example would be a much lower number.

So we'll be judging strengths by the following parameters:

a) The level of the character's talent,
b) How helpful the talent is to the character personally,
c) How much the talent can potentially affect the continuity and
d) How much the talent can affect other characters.

Gotcha! *salutes* I understand now. Thank you!

Sounds good to me, great balance must be had in the continuity. But with every prep having to be listed I assume that every spell the character knows has to be applied, rather then stating the nature of magic and then working out the other spells yourself?

I think a simple way of putting it is like so:

STANDARD FIGHTER GUY:

Swords 3/5
Shields 3/5
Armor 4/5

Stupid -2/-5

STANDARD MAGE GUY:

Fireballs 2/5
Conjuring Food 4/5

Obviously the mage has a bigger impact here cause he can fucking make food out of nowhere (I vote we just straight up ban skills and abilities similar to that) and can fling a decent fireball. I also think that complete mastery of a skill should only be attainable after the character has been rp'ed in the dream for a while, so no one should come in rockin a 5/5 on something. It's not like hard numbers, either, it's just mostly for reference. Obviously impact doesn't need to be "rated" per se, because someone can logically look and assume how much a skill would impact the continuity.

Serin's got it! We can either ban those abilities, or give them a major drawback/force a requirement of expensive reagents/give it a huge spell failure chance. When this kind of spell comes up, we can discuss possible nerfs with the applicant.

As for listing preps for all abilities, I'm not sure. Magic has a wide range of uses, and part of playing a spellcaster is figuring out those uses. Setting in stone each spell your character knows is a bit limiting, especially since magicians are often learning new ones--it's far more prudent to list their talent in certain schools of magic, I think. When I made that suggestion, I was thinking more along the lines of how many posts it takes a shapeshifter to change, or how long a vampire must feed before its victim changes--other, set-in-stone abilities like that.

Magic will probably be handled a little differently. We can ask applicants to scale their character's potential from 1-10. This is a number indicative of the maximum number of preps a character can cast with--1 is very basic magic, and 10 is the most powerful of spells. 10 isn't taboo or restricted! Your average fullblown, graduated wizard would rate a 10. (This number counts towards strengths on their balance sheet too btw, of course.)

The player then divides that 10 between various schools of magic, with no more than 5 points being placed in a single school. Taking Ed as an example, I'd probably divide his 10 up like this: 5 in chronomancy, 2 in ice, 2 in dimensional magic and 1 in basic magic. He'd be able to reliably cast spells from the school of chronomancy up to 5 preps, but if he tried to cast with any more than that, he'd have a chance of failure that'd be checked with a dice roll, and increase the further up from 5 his number of preps became. Fails would prolly be checked after each prep and have some sort of rebound, maybe stunning the caster for a round or two.

Worth a note, the 1 in basic magic just means he can freely cast any simple, 1-prep spell that works purely off of arcane energy (that is, no demonic 1-prep spells, for example). If he tried to cast from schools that weren't chronomancy, ice or dimensional magic with more than 1 prep he risks exploding himself. (Since cantrips are so useful, I figured they should take at least a single point if people want to be able to use them.)

Now, if I made a character with only a 5 as their magical potential, they'd be able to divide that 5 up between schools as before, but if THEY tried to cast over 5 preps, they wouldn't be faced with a dice roll--they'd be faced with the same results that a 10 magician who tried to cast over 10 preps would get, which is usually something downright horrible.

Anyway, a character casting a 10 can result in horribly groundbreaking magical capabilities if they ever get the spell off. Level 10 spells will probably have to be nerfed considerably with reagents and dice-rolled potential failures and the requirement of rituals and huge amounts of energy and/or catalysts, because these spells don't necessarily have to be performed in the midst of combat. Still, they shouldn't be put out entirely, they just need to be really, really, really uncommon, and possibly even banned from public use by the Wizard's Guild.

Anyone else think magic might need more nerfs?

I agree with magic nerfs. Maybe the Wizard Guild itself imposes strict rules on magic (A bit like a strict, grumphy version of Warcraft's Kirin Tor) and anyone found violating those rules will be hunted down and possibly executed?
Maybe they might even be able to take away someone's magic for a certain duration, as punishment. (perhaps this has something to do with the magic substances in the cave ;D)
I also like the scale idea. Some of us already implemented that back in NK, if I remember correctly and it worked pretty fine. Though I can sense a shitload of newbies giving us drama for imposing rules like this. But we don't need silly riff-raff like that anyway. After all, magic isn't a fix-it-all tool, it's a very delicate instrument that is just as likely to blow up in your face than anything else.

Hat City should definitely be some majestic place of magical wonders with a Council that demands regular reports of the expedition in Skuldhellir (and thinks itself superior to the dwarves in every way), probably also a political force that tries to control all magic and artefacts and magic wielders inside its radius of power. Could add in a bit of corruption here and there to spice things up a little.

That sounds fantastic, but I was wondering though about situational preps.

Taking Anukha for example. She can make an earth wall rise from the ground, I can imagine that if she's standing on sand it will take her not long, or perhaps just a second to pull a veil of sand out of the wall. (which's only protection will be to irritate the opponents vision. :p) if on the other hand she'd be standing on solid rock ground I'd imagine it would take a whole lot longer for her to pull a wall out of the ground, since the ground is harder to break (with greater protection of course, once she's got it)

Then another example with bardmon, I can imagine that a magical lullaby will take far shorter on someone who is already sleepy to begin with, then on someone who's just had 5 cups of coffee.


I find that also a good and sensible idea Ulrin. I mean. I can't see a wizard guild letting other magic users run around to be dangerous, and give them a bad name.

I love all of Ulrin's ideas! That's exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for when the Wizard's Guild and Hat City came up. Also teehee Kirin Tor reference.

And Gilex, that fits right in. Say Anukha's skillz with earth magic is a 5. If her earth wall is a 5 prep skill, pulling it out of average ground would be 5 preps, while pulling it out of anything tougher can be more preps--meaning she's got a chance of failure the more preps she needs. Pulling the wall out of sand is easier than pulling it out of typical soil, but the spell will STILL be 5 preps because the spell at its basest level requires the same amount of energy. Geddit?

I see. That sounds sensible. But now I started wondering something else again about magic.
Do more mundanish sorts of magic like enchanting and alchemy also count as a magic point or as something different?

Enchanting and alchemy are passive knowledges, kind of like blacksmithing or fletching. They aren't counted from the preps because they don't really need preps to complete, just materials and skill. They will, however, probably require that the character with the skill is capable of a certain number of preps; to be a respectably talented enchanter, it might be required that the character have a magic score of 5 points/preps or more, even if they don't really use magic much beyond the profession. This would be to keep things balanced--since that 5 AND the level of skill in the magical profession both count towards the character's balance sheet, people won't just pick these potentially powerful talents up without thinking.

Yeah, I've always considered those part magic, part skill. You don't need to be a mage to be an alchemist, even though it sure helps. And for enchanting, you might just be good at capturing magical essence into objects, but not a full-blown mage.
I think, for enchanting at least, skill in it would make your enchantments of a better quality (longer duration, more reliable, etc.) while added magic skill would allow you to place more powerful enchantments. (though you could always ask a wizard to aid you in this.)

So anyway let's see if we can summarize our ideas for gauging magic, here. Just 'cause I'm listing it out doesn't mean it's set in stone, we still want tweaks!

-A character that uses spells is required to have assigned to them by their player a number from 1-10, based on their magical expertise. This number is the maximum number of preps they can cast with without either killing themselves or causing a terrible rebound. The average, trained wizard will usually be a 9 or a 10, while a dabbler might be as low as a 3. This number counts towards your strengths score.

-No matter what, a character can never cast with more than 10 preps. If they try, the magical energy they have gathered will simply rip free of their control and sunder them devastatingly.

-This number is then divided as the player wishes between as many schools as possible. A player does not have to divide this number perfectly--that is, if they take 10, their level of expertise does not need to add up to 10, it simply cannot go over it. These numbers are also counted towards your strengths score, so a character capable of 10 preps with all 10 of their points in various schools of magic will have gained 20 points on their strengths score.

-One cannot assign more than 5 points of expertise to a single school of magic. Even at maximum expertise, a character faces possible failure, checked after every extra prep with a dice roll, for every prep that's 6 or above. Characters casting from schools with fewer points of expertise will face possible failure beginning at x+1 preps, where x is the number of points assigned to the school.

-10-prep spells are incredibly powerful, but they are illegal unless the caster (and/or any required assistants) has obtained explicit, written permission from the head(s) of the Wizard's Guild. Casting, or trying to cast, powerful magic without this permission can result in punishment and execution; if a rogue mage breaks this law and evades capture, he will be hunted relentlessly for being a public danger.

-Magical occupations/abilities will require a magical expertise number, but the number does not need to be divided into schools of magic to count. This makes it so non-spellcasting enchanters/alchemists/etc. are still possible, and have a lower strength score to balance out than characters that are both spellcasters and enchanters/alchemists/etc..

Sounds pretty good to me, I'm busily trying to balance Anukha right now using this system and it's working.

Now I do have another question involving the mage guild. Besides +10 prep spells, are there other types of magic that are a social tabboo or even not allowed by the mage guild? With this I'm thinking about summoning demons, necromancy, soul stealing, things like that. Evil magickz

Yeah, that kind of magic will probably be considered taboo. Warlocks, if any, will have to be covert and underground with their practices; if they're too open they'll face shunning. That kind of magic just scares people, and the Wizard's Guild will surely want no associations with it. It will likely be banned from practice by any member, and people found using it within Skuldhellir but who're outside of the guild will be watched with a careful and distrusting eye.

I believe the summoning of demons/elementals/etc. would probably be allowed up to a certain level. Small level servants for messaging and errand-running perhaps. But this'll probably be limit to Mage Guild members and under strict conditions and monitoring.

The rest would probably deserve you a fireball to the face. The Mage Guild wouldn't want to afford losing face because some idiot warlock wants to mess with powers beyond their comprehension. Ninjamage assassins ftw.

Guys--I just got an idea. There should be, like, vampires everywhere, but we don't know that yet. And the mayor's daughter is in love with one of them like really hard, and he's been watching her a bunch while she sleeps, and she has a weird baby that fucks up her womb and then the vampire dad gives her a C-section with his teeth!!

(Oh and he sparkles!!)

YEAH TOTALLIES

Thats a great idea! And they must go to the tavern and be all like. "I can read the mind of everyone in this tavern, safe you." But nobody listens to it.

And there should also be a pack of werewolves that aren't really werewolves because they can turn into wolves whenever they want and one of them falls in love with the mayor's daughter but when the vampire gets married to her he decides to fall in love with her baby instead!

BACK ON SUBJECT:

Gilex was awesome enough to post up Anukha for me to poke at with a stick using our scoring system and ended up getting a retardedly larger score of strengths over weaknesses. I did the same thing with Ed and got similar results.

This is 'cause of the magic!

I reconsidered and I think it would make more sense if, instead of adding the number of points put into schools in addition to the chosen max number of preps the character can cast, the character is taxed one point per school they decide to specialize in. I think this is fair, since being able to cast even a small number of preps from a school of magic with no failure penalties is a pretty big deal.

Sounds cool and it worked now, I also have a better view about how the application thing goes.

And now come tiem wonders. Taking the fact that some people ran from Northkeep and ended up in Skuldhellir, how long would that journey have taken them?

I think the plan was that by the Time Skuldhellir is started up, the characters that came to it from Northkeep will have already been there for a while--enough to have gotten settled in, at least. I'm not certain, though!

So perhaps a year has passed? So it's ICly spring while being much much later?